Author, editor and critic Antwaun Sargent examines contemporary art with a proficient visual critique that has established his writing as an essential addition to a variety of publications on art. Antwaun’s curatorial focus is photography and in particular emerging and under-recognized photographers of color, whom he profiled exclusively in his first book. His upcoming exhibition, titled Just Pictures, will be released with Barrett Barrera Projects in September 2020. In this episode Antwaun discusses contextualizing photography as fine art, the converging of art with other social and creative platforms, and the inevitability of change.
Show Notes
projects+gallery
The New Black Vanguard
Young Gifted and Black
Black Beauty: Photography Between Art and Fashion
I'm Susan Barrett, and I'm Todd Thomas. At Barrett Barrera Projects, we believe that ART IS A VERB — it’s the ongoing process of de-constructing and re-constructing our world.
This season, we'll delve deep into the creative processes of some of our most inspiring friends and collaborators, to understand how they are navigating this pivotal moment and working to transform our existing systems, reimagine the status quo, and support each other across disciplines, in order to create a more sustainable, and equitable future for us all.
Welcome to ART IS A VERB, a Barrett Barrera Project. In this episode, we are speaking with author, editor and art critic Antwaun Sargeant on storming the institution, developing an ethics of care, the widening of possibility, and leveraging this moment to "build back better."
Antwaun, who says "nothing is too sacred for change," offers great advice on how we can support the next generation of artists in realizing the change they want to see. Antwaun's first book, “The New Black Vanguard: Photography between Art and Fashion” is out now, and we look forward to welcoming Antwaun with his upcoming show "Just Pictures," opening September 10th (2020) at Barrett Barrera Projects’ own projects+gallery in St. Louis. Antwaun, thank you for joining us today.
Antwaun: [00:00:03] So great to see both of you.
Susan: [00:00:05] So Antwaun, what's going on with you in this COVID time? How has your experience been?
Antwaun: [00:00:11] It's been really interesting. Like there was a lot of, uh, projects that I was in the middle of working on and they're all really great. And then, it all sort of got put on pause and then unfortunately, a lot of sort of loss, not only just humans, but also people's creative projects and livelihoods and stuff like that. And so it was really a moment for me in New York where, you know, we experienced it first, now it's rolling across the country, unfortunately.
There was a moment for me to really sort of sit back and think about what I wanted to do and to really think about not only my sort of creative, you know, writing and curatorial and practice, but also just like what type of human I wanted to be in the world. [Susan: Right.] And so, you know, I've been really trying to use this moment as, you know, destructive, as it might feel and be in a real way, to try to come back more thoughtful, more humane, more ethical.
There's this sort of funny thing that Cuomo says, been saying, which is like “build back better,” you know, and it's sort of a silly slogan, but there is something I think, important to sort of-- this moment where we can all really be re-imagining who we are too, in relationship to each other, but also developing sort of a, you know, an ethics of care and institutions that really sort of respect and value who we are, regardless of, political affiliations and, what have you. And so I've been really interested in that and also, helping out where I can, protesting where I can, and really just thinking about the future, really, as much as I can.
Todd: [00:01:53] I know that it's difficult and it's a shared emotion that we've had with all the people that we've spoken with here. You know the feeling of suffering and loss and what we're going through and the uncertainty of our futures and our work and how that's changing, but to backtrack just a second, can you tell us a little bit about your history? I know that you have a Master's Degree in Education and you started as a teacher [Antwaun: Right] and now you're into a different area of work, and I'm wondering how that transition happened, what that was like.
Antwaun: [00:02:27] Well, then that was 10 years ago. I grew up in Chicago. I was super interested in politics, and so that led me to Georgetown University, School of Foreign Service. And I studied there, and I interned for Hillary Clinton and worked on various political campaigns, and things like that.
Then I moved to New York and I wanted to sort of my first job, I was really kind of keen that it was, it was community based, something that really, you know, helped the communities. And I thought that Teach for America was, at the time, something that was really sort of helping, you know, our communities and really a place where I could have the biggest sort of direct impact.
And so I became a teacher and I taught for four years and I was a literature teacher, and so I taught a score of kids how to read, and how to think and how to really negotiate the world with comprehension skills. And while I was doing that, I sort of fell into the art scene in New York. You know, art has always been super important to me throughout my life and Chicago has, you know, world-class art institutions and Washington DC has world-class art institutions. So it's always been a really important part of my life. And then I remember going to Mickalene Thomas’ show at the Brooklyn Museum, her survey there, and, you know, seeing the works there... and they just really, sort of, knocked me off my feet.
It wasn't so much, like I saw myself, it was more so like, wow, this is possible. And so from there, I would just really interested in the work. And I was like looking online to read more about her, more about artists like her and stuff like that. And I just didn't see a lot.
And so, I just started to have those conversations with those artists, and start to publish those conversations. And just kept going, you know, and, and for a while it was just sort of me like talking to the artists that, I just really felt sort of a personal connection to, and here we are.
And then, exhibitions and all these other sort of ways. You know, right now, as I speak to you, I'm on a shoot, uh, with Tyler Mitchell, who's a photographer, and someone I'm very close to and has a very close kind of collaborative relationship too, and just, you know, helping out where I can and really sort of thinking through, helping artists think through sort of project conceptually and having an opportunity to really sort of work with artists in a lot of different capacities, you know, from curating exhibitions to talking through projects that they're working on and giving them feedback on different bodies of work, to being critical and being a critic and to writing about the work. And so, I mean, I love it, really.
Susan: [00:05:07] Tell us about the transition between teaching kids and communicating with artists. What did you learn from teaching that you can apply to art and artists?
Antwaun: [00:05:41] When you were teaching, it really is about empathy. And trying to understand where people are coming from, and an ethics of care. And so it really is not so much about just artists, but it's just about a worldview. Like when you're teaching. And by the way, I was a kindergarten and third grade teacher. So I was entrusted with children who were just starting to figure what the world could be, you know? And for me, it was about making sure that they had the biggest imaginations possible. And I often see sort of that dreaming and that sort of imaginative work whenever I'm in an artist studio and working with an artist and thinking about what's possible.
Susan: [00:06:20] Oh, I love that. Yeah.
Antwaun: [00:06:30] I never really thought about the connection between teaching and working with artists, but I think that that is one of the things that I have seen, you know, over the last decade is that there is always this commitment to possibility, and commitment to sort of dreaming up a new world, and a new way of seeing things.
And so I think that. You know, with artists and with the students that I taught, it was always about sort of meeting them where they were, and seeing the world from their eyes, Right? And a lot of deep listening has to go on when you were trying to think about you know, an artist or a student and their projects and lives and, you know, education capacities in terms of students, but with artists in terms of, you know, what they are trying to bring into the world and how you can aid that or how you can help to sort of contextualize that for an audience.
Susan: [00:07:27] Love that.
Todd: [00:07:17] Antwaun, your book and exhibition from last year, The New Black Vanguard: Photography Between Art and Fashion focused on ways young Black photographers are making commercial work through the context of art and fashion. Can you tell us how that project came about?
Antwaun: [00:07:32] Sure. So, Aperture Foundation, which is an amazing photo organization, you know, around for decades and decades, since, you know, Ansel Adams and others sort of came together to start a photography foundation that focused on photographers and photographers voices.
I in ways that they weren't before. And so Aperture has this really great history, you know, publishing photographers like Nan Goldin and more recently, you know, Sarah Lewis edited the Vision and Justice Issue, you know, that landmark issue of their magazine. And so, you know, Chris Booth, who's the editor there, and Leslie, who's a Creative Director came to me and said, “Hey, we have a slot open for our books in the fall. And we were wondering if you wanted to do a book and what would it be?” And instantly it had to be about this generation of photographers, which I call the New Black Vanguard photographers are called the new Black band card that are making a lot of images, a lot of images that we're always grappling now and sort of this age of social media. No one was really sort of thinking about their images, in sort of a critical way, or thinking about that images and how they might connect you, the history of commercial photography, but also the history of art photography and the references and inspirations that they had. And so I just thought that very often with Black artists, you don't get to think about them early in their career and just kind of think through their ideas at the beginning of their career and not after they've had some level of resounding success.
Todd: [00:08:59] Right.
Antwaun: [00:09:00] And so I just thought that these photographers, a lot of them unknown in the art world, had built tremendous followings outside the art world and their images mattered. And I wanted to do a project that really spoke to the fact that their images mattered and they were powerful images and they were really sort of changing our perceptions of not only the Black body, but also, the possibility of photography.
Susan: [00:09:20] Well, what's so interesting about that too, is a lot of artists now, and I think it starts with the, um, African American artists, are not only starting from a different career, like fashion into fine arts, [Antwaun: Right.] But then you go back to, like, you start with Mickalene, for example, and now she's embracing the commercial partnerships, [Antwaun: Exactly] which is something fairly new. Can you talk about that?
Antwaun: [00:09:48] I don't actually think it's fairly new. I think if you go back to someone like Man Ray, for example, right? He was doing the same thing. You go back to someone, I think you had William Eggleston doing the same thing. There's a history of photographers making commercial work, but for some reason, the art world had been less interested in acknowledging those histories of commercial work. Yeah. Particularly with the history of photography. Right.
Todd: [00:10:11] Right. I mean, photography has taken a while to be considered...
Antwaun: [00:10:15] Exactly. The history of photography has taken a while to be considered fine art. Right? And so, because of that history, you had photographers having to figure out the way to survive, and they’ve survived a lot through commercial commissions. Right? And so, you have that history, and you have that history with every major photographer you can think of. And also with a lot of artists who are not necessarily photographers, but who have had this commercial sort of bent to pay the rent so they can make the art that they want.
Right. And so I think what you have with this generation is, they're no longer willing to ignore it. Right? And they're saying that, you know, we're going to embrace every aspect of our creativity and we're not going to put up superficial boundaries around what's fine art or what's commercial, you know? For them, an image is just an image.
Todd: [00:11:01] And all of our platforms are converging.
Antwaun: [00:11:04] Exactly. And then you have this sort of other thing where our platforms or where we experience or how we even experience art these days are often through the photographic, right? So especially now, in the age of COVID, now we all have gone to online exhibitions, right? And what are online exhibitions? They are glorified photo galleries, right?
And so I think that you have this generation of photographers who have embraced the fact that they are willing to put their practices under one sort of centralized vision, and they don't think “commercial” or “fashion” are dirty words. Right? And they're willing to say that, you know what, our inspiration, you know, we're going to refuse to sort of submit to some of the pressures around the art market. That which has kind of, I think, heightened the need for these separations. And they’re going, we're going to make the work that we want to make, and we're going to present that work on billboards and we're going to present them in museums and in galleries. And we're going to present that work on the cover of magazines. Because the work matters.
And the power of the work is evidenced through the fact that it's able to occupy many different platforms at once, for many different audiences. I think one of the great promises of this work is that it's able to not only speak to one particular audience, one image is able to speak across the different divides.
And I think, if there is one thing that I think about the future of art, is that we're going to have more and more of that. We're going to have less divides. We're going to have more artists partnering with fashion brands. We’re going to have more fashion brands partnering with museums. We’re going to have more galleries interested in reaching beyond their clientele and thinking about how to engage others outside of the traditional audiences that we have, because that honestly is the only way that they're going to survive.
Todd: [00:12:54] Yeah, that's a big premise of what we talk about. And Susan's concept of Art is a Verb is exactly what you just spoke about. On that same note, about the transmission of work and where that comes out, where that lands now, there’s the publishing industry becoming completely extinct, and we're uncertain and what's happening in the art world, how that will be affected as we emerge from this. What do you see as, like, how does that photo art product exist now, in the virtual age and in the age of changes we're experiencing through COVID, how does that like physical product exist or does it? What's the reality of that?
Antwaun: [00:13:44] Well, I think one thing particularly with photography, is that, and with these photographers, The New Black Vanguard and others who are working like them, is the fact that they were already thinking about a future beyond magazines. They're already thinking about a future beyond the institutions that got us through the 20th century.
I think that every century deserves their own institutions and I don't have an answer, I'm watching what the artists are doing. And yeah. I'm sort of looking at that and saying, “Oh, this is an interesting idea. Oh, you want to make your own online magazine? Oh, okay. This is interesting. Oh, you want to start your own publishing arm? Oh, this is interesting. Oh, you want to make sure that you're collaborating across, you're bringing fashion brands and museums and artists together to support a new book project or new exhibition. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. Maybe that's the future.”
I think one of the things we have to be, is open. To the possibility, open to change, open to new institutions. You know what I mean? And I don't think that anything it's too sacred for change. And I think that, that's one of the things that these young artists, not just photographers, but the other young artists I also work with, has really instilled in me. Is that we always have to be constantly looking at the world in new ways and thinking about, how do we make sure that we're driving towards more, not just inclusion, but liberation? [Todd: right.] How do we make sure that people are being free to express themselves the way if they want to? Artists, but also the general public?
Todd: [00:15:09] Right? That is another question, how much of that change of self actualization is from exclusion of those places that held things so tightly?
Antwaun: [00:15:22] Well, I think that's the other thing is, right. Like you have to think about the history of exclusion, because for a very long time, a lot of those, institutions had, as you said, excluded a great many people. And so for a very long time, but those institutions didn't actually matter in the lives of a lot of people who will have a lot of cultural power now today. Right? And so one of the things is like, these institutions are in a crisis, people aren't buying magazines or buying less books or whatever, and part of that is, is because for so long, the audiences had grown in other spaces.
And so I said, I'm on this shoot with Tyler Mitchell right now, and Tyler Mitchell built his own audience before Vogue came to him, or before the art world came to him he built his own digital community.
Hundreds of thousands of Instagram followers, you know, people on Twitter, people on Tumblr. Right. And he published his own book, you know what I mean? And so in a lot of ways he didn't need the institution. Right. In a lot of ways he's doing the institution a favor for going back and working with them.
And so I think, to kind of sum it up, they need to be agile, the need to kind of think beyond their own biases and their own ideas of what culture is, and to really think and allow for the possibility to change, but also to look at what's already taking shape in the culture and seeing how they can sort of help support that, or make that reflective of their institutional missions.
Susan: [00:16:51] It's fascinating because in a way, what COVID then did...
Antwaun: [00:16:56] ...was sped up the timeline.
Susan: [00:16:58] Yeah. I mean, for the ivory towers, it really just dismantled something, which was the traditional relationship with art. You walk into a museum, you walk into a gallery. And so, by not being able to, you have younger Instagram influencers, et cetera, who already had captive a new form of looking at things. And in fact, that's how I met you, Antwaun, is through Instagram. So look at how far ahead now, those who understand Instagram, and those who understand various platforms... look at how far ahead they are. Whereas, the traditional museums and galleries... we’re scrambling to figure out how we bring people outside of a physical platform to see what we're doing.
So I want to compare that also with Black Lives Matter, because what COVID did for the institutions Black Lives Matter is doing for the culture. Like, “let us in, we need to think about this in a different way.”
Antwaun: [00:18:09] Right. I think that it's not even so much about letting us in, right? Cause like, I think that sort of flattens the sort of nuance that I think is important, particularly with, you know, Black Lives Matter.
Todd: [00:18:20] You're already in... that's the whole thing.
Antwaun: [00:18:23] Exactly. That's the point. The point is, that what you don't realize is that you need to realize that we have already stormed the institution. [Susan: Right, right.] So that is sort of what's happening here, is that people are realizing like, “Oh wait, they're already here.”
Susan: [00:18:40] Right. And we're trying to catch up.]
Antwaun: [00:18:44] Exactly. That's why it's so messy. Right? Because you see a lot of trying to catch up right.
Todd: [00:18:45] A lot of backtracking and a lot of like, Oh, this is a genius idea that we didn't acknowledge. Can we have some please?
Antwaun: [00:18:52] Exactly. Exactly. So that's why in 2020, you see the first Black photographer to shoot this or that. And it's really frankly, an embarrassment. Right. And it also reveals this sort of institutional racism. And beyond that, the institution trying to protect its racism. Right. If you think about the history, and I don't want to make this into just about photography--because I think there's a lot of artists and a lot of, sort of.
Todd: [00:19:19] Designers and...
Antwaun: [00:19:21] Designers and voices that just, you know, creatives who still deserve...
Todd: [00:19:25] filmmakers.
Yup, exactly.
Antwaun: [00:19:27] And filming, I mean, just so many. And so, but like, I think if you think about the fact that like there's generations of talent, right. Who have been right.
Todd: [00:19:36] You know, on that note Antwaun, that was something that I wanted to ask you about--until recently were bill have been acknowledged and given the space.
There have been many Black and minority artists and designers and photographers and writers and people in the art world. Are there people that came before you from previous generations that have specifically inspired or informed how you work or how you approach what you do?
Antwaun: [00:20:05] Oh, absolutely. I mean, first of all, one of the things is that we're not talking about a handful of shows here. We're not talking about the fact that like over the last few years that we've gotten the Kerry James Marshall retrospective, and we got, you know, the Soul of the Nation and this and that. I mean, what we're talking about here is a whole century plus 20 years of exclusion. right? [Todd: Yeah [and low].]
So my thing is, I'm constantly, there are people who came before me 100% look up to: Hilton Als, Thelma Golden...I can just continue naming them. Right. But then there's also people who I discover every day, who I did not have the pleasure of knowing in my youth and development, that I wish I had. And so part of this is so much about, yes, like you find the people that you need to help you do the work and get there.
But then what keeps me up at night is all the people that I was not able to encounter, that could have made my creative path a little bit easier. What’s heartbreaking about that is that it's by design. What’s heartbreaking about that is that it wasn't because they weren't talented enough. It wasn't because they didn't have all the things that we tell ourselves it's about our history.
One of the people that I, you know, a couple of years ago, who I got to know, um, and actually ended up writing a catalog for, was Ed Clark, the postwar abstract painter... I would say like, wow, it would have been really great to know that Ed existed as a teenager. [Todd: Right.]
Because the thing is, it's about the widening of possibility, right? It's about the widening of notions of who we are. That's why it matters who's on the cover of a magazine, or that's why it matters who's in our art history books or when you go to a museum, who you see and things like that--because you need somebody, and you need the world to constantly, as you're developing, and this is what I’d do with my kids. when I was a teacher... you need someone to be there to say it's okay. You matter. It's fine. Try that. Fail. Experiment. Get back up. We're here. And that comes through your parents, but that also comes to be able to have the possibility to walk through The Institute of Chicago and see an Ed Clark work there.
Todd: [00:22:27] Right. Exactly.
Antwaun: [00:22:28] Ed Clark, who lived in Chicago, who grew up in Chicago. Inspiration is a funny thing. Like, you don't know where it comes from, you don't know what's going to inspire you, but you want to have the possibility of having it there. You know, we're talking about not too long ago, Black people weren’t allowed in the mat and this wasn't a hundred years ago.
This was the 1960’s, you know? And so we're talking about in my parents' lifetime, you know, we're talking about in my grandparents' lifetime, them not being allowed to see art. And so I think that like one of the things, yeah, and if if we're looking at it that way, one of the things that's so amazing, and that gives me so much hope is the fact that so much progress has been made, which means that I know that so much more progress can happen.
Todd: [00:23:13] And it needs to, you know, that's something that we should think about and take away, and we're kind of reaching a point where we need to wrap up. And I think we should probably end on that note.
Susan: [00:23:25] I just wanted to ask what's next in terms of your next show, especially in St. Louis?
Antwaun: [00:23:33] What’s next is yes, Just Pictures, which is happening at your space, which I'm really, excited about. [Susan: [projects + gallery] Yes!
With the New Black Vanguard, we started a conversation. It was the start of a conversation. It wasn't a conclusion of a conversation. It was the start. And so I'm happy that we get to partner to further explore these ideas that were raised just last year.
And so we're going to do that with a new group of photographers. We're going to see what their concerns are. We're going to see the possibility of the worlds that they are creating, and I'm really super excited about having the possibility of being to do this in St. Louis, and include Justin Solomon who's a local photographer there who's thinking beyond just the figure, and the figurative and thinking about color and shadow and shape. And so I'm really excited and I cannot wait, you know, we've been working on the show and I cannot wait until it opens.
Susan: [00:24:32] We are so excited, too. And I can't wait to see you in, six weeks or so.
Antwaun: [00:24:38] Exactly, exactly. Because the conversation it's just constant, we need to continue more and there's just not enough time.
Todd: [00:24:44] Please. Please.
Antwaun: [00:24:45] Exactly. And I think that one of the things that's going to be so great about the exhibition is the possibility for programming. And so, us being in conversation with the artist, being in conversation with other thinkers and us all being in conversation.
Because I think one of the things that I'm really excited about is the fact that we get to dream of a new world together. [Susan: Right.] And we get to try to make that together. [Todd: Yes, please.] And I think that's like this for me, this is the work of being able to try new things and see if they work out and to bring new ideas places and be affected by new ideas and to expand my thinking. So I'm really exciting that Just Pictures is going to be a part of that conversation and that we continue to be able to be in dialog, in fellowship and to really try to think about how do we make institutions and to make an art that is centered on our lives and our freedom and liberation
Susan: [00:25:40] Love that.
Todd: [00:25:45] Antwaun. Thank you so much for participating with us. This has been inspirational and...
Antwaun: [00:25:51] Thank you guys for having me. This is really great.
Todd: [00:25:54] Look forward to seeing your new book, too.
Antwaun: [00:25:56] Thank you.
Susan: [00:25:58] Thank you, Antwaun.
Todd: [00:26:00] Thank you very much.
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