Art Is A Verb

Fashion Pioneer and Legend Dapper Dan on the Power of Image to Shape a Movement

Episode Notes

Dapper Dan (or simply “Dap”) has long stood at the intersection of fashion and activism. From his start in Harlem to his partnership with Gucci, Dan’s career trajectory upended traditional routes to luxury clothes-making, bypassing, with style and sensibility, the barriers to entry in that world.

In this episode Dan tells hosts Susan and Todd about how a shifting balance of power in fashion mirrors current movements for justice and equity—a dynamic symbolized in even basic accessories like a tie. Dan shares how he achieved self-empowerment through the fashion system and why, despite his many accomplishments in the world of luxury, his ultimate goal in fashion is to fashion young minds.

Show Notes

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Episode Transcription

I'm Susan Barrett, and I'm Todd Thomas. At Barrett Barrera Projects, we believe that ART IS A VERB — it’s the ongoing process of de-constructing and re-constructing our world. 

This season, we'll delve deep into the creative processes of some of our most inspiring friends and collaborators, to understand how they are navigating this pivotal moment and working to transform our existing systems, reimagine the status quo, and support each other across disciplines, in order to create a more sustainable, and equitable future for us all. 

Welcome to ART IS A VERB, a Barrett Barrera Project. In this episode, we are speaking with legendary fashion designer and couturier from Harlem, Dapper Dan, on personal transformation, the power of image to shape a movement, the connection between luxury and activism, and his work to fashion young minds.

Dan speaks truth to power and is now working closely in partnership with Gucci. --- His book, "Made in Harlem: A Memoir" recently came out in paperback. 

Hello Dan, thank you for joining us.

Dan: [00:00:18] Hey, guys!

Susan: [00:00:19] Can you speak about the transformative nature of fashion from a personal level? In the messaging and communication aspects, as well as the other aspects of supply and making which provide opportunities for so many people?

Dan: [00:00:25] People often ask me this question about the transformative nature of fashion, and to that I’ve always expressed this is something akin to the prince and the pauper complex. It’s the pauper who always aspires to be outside of the level of living and identity they are, and it’s the Prince who’s always stuck in the level that they are. And so, what I've noticed in communicating and transforming the transformative between these two different socio-economical process is that the pauper always comes up with more inventive things, more ways to raise their level of how they want to be perceived.

And what I've noticed lately, is that there's been a gravitational pull from the princes down into this middle level and it's coming together. And what I think has done that a lot, is that culture coming from the lower classes is always rich and exciting, and culture coming from the upper classes is always stagnant. And so, I think that has a lot to do with the transformation that's taking place now, and how it’s affecting fashion. Here's an example: when you look at a lot of young white kids that I come in contact with, typically you'd see them in Ralph Lauren, are starting to wear a lot of street designer brands, and a lot of the lower classes are aspiring towards European luxury brands. We are meeting at that level in the middle, and it’s generating a lot of excitement. 

Todd: [00:02:21] Right. Dan, in your work, you usurped an elitist system that doesn't like to share and redistribute power. It's still very broken and imbalanced. In the making or projection area, there's so much inequity, the power and the profits are stacked in the favor of the small percentage of the upfront people. Do you think there's any hope that will ever change and be redistributed more equitably? 

Dan: [00:02:46] Now...And this relates somewhat to the folks in the elitist system I spoke about a moment ago, that's collapsing. It has to look for new ideas. So, therefore it had to set up a system by where they could incorporate those ideas, and then the process of incorporation has made it possible for people from the lower classes to have a tiny footprint in the fashion industry. But what I experienced in my development, I noticed that there are like three levels: there’s the economical orphan, there's the economical adoptee, and there’s the economical one who's being nurtured.

And let me explain the difference now. The economical orphan is myself. Because I was denied access to Fashion and to the fashion industry, I had to create, as an orphan would have to do, of completely, and survive completely on my own. So I had to make a name for myself, completely outside of the fashion establishment.

And that worked for me because of the elevation of a culture that was taking place. Mainly hip hop that was sweeping the pipe. [Todd: Right.] So I ended up with the opportunity, for being global and having a global expression, because of hip hop music and the culture that took it around. However, I never had the opportunity over the 30 years to take advantage of that to a certain level.

In other words, I was locally popular in terms of distribution, but globally popular in terms of identity. So that created a problem for me, being what I consider an orphan in the industry. Now, the second state is the adoptee, the adoptee, the economical adoptees in fashion are those designers of color who represents those major brands. And they had a chance because of the fact that they were adapted by those major brands to get a global presence now. And that goal presence was predicated on the fact that these brands make it possible for them. So they didn't have to do what I did to be global. So, those are the ones I call adoptees.

Now the problem with adoptees, like an adopted child, you always get treated like an outsider, you know, like the stepchild, you have to endure the “stepchild syndrome.” And therefore, you can't speak out as if you are a regular member of the family. So that creates a problem. Right? That's the second economical plight.

The third is nurturing. Nurturing are those brands, by people of color who are outside of these fashion corporations had their own entity, which could be nurtured by these major corporations that can allow them to have footing and a global presence. Now, that is where I am now. So I went from being an orphan, jumped over the adoptee phase and went to the phase of being nurtured. So my relationship with Gucci right now, is I was already out there, I was already global and they came to me and say, we know the world knows about you now, We're going to make it possible for you to be global. Right? So I'm in the nurturing space. So those are the three different stages that you encounter as being a brand by people of color.

But the biggest problem of that, and this is going to be a problem that's going to be going on for a while now, is because it has to do with the biggest issue in fashion. And that's in production on a global level and distribution on a global level. That is something that cannot happen without partnership.

So, in the future for brands by people of color, the most that we can have to look forward to is partnership, and that’s great, having studied, like, Tom Ford, Marc Jacobs, Ralph Lauren. You know? These wasn't done in the blind. You know, these initially started out with partnerships, which a lot of people of color don't realize.

So the hope and the aspiration I have now, is that we can get to that stage where we can develop partnerships and independent brands that can be nurtured by these multinational fashion conglomerates that really control the industry.

Susan: [00:07:17] In this time on pause, I'm hearing people talk about reflecting on priorities. With awareness and demonstrations, it seems like people are activating their priorities. Will the language of luxury and status take on a different direction because of this? 

Dan: [00:07:32] Pause is the right word, because I feel like pause before. Looking at everything that's taking place now reminded me of the sixties and the Vietnamese war. You know, you have to remember, it was the George Floyd incident and that video that was so phenomenal, that just changed the whole hearts of so many people. And it's not only in America, in the world, but I've seen this happen before. In the Vietnam war, when that young girl was running down the road [Susan: Yeah] she had the napalm, and she was running down that road, ripping all her clothes off, bare naked. And that picture went around the world, and that reflected on the seriousness of what happened and it changed everybody.

In fact, it was a catalyst for the end of the Vietnamese war. That's how powerful that picture was. And I see this George Floyd video as doing the same thing, so I think, yes, it’s going to change. It's going to make a difference. It's going to make the same difference that the Vietnamese war made when we change things on a certain level.

And here we are 50 years later, and we're still confronted with issues that are pretty much the same. I think in order for them to make a big impression, you have to change what takes place at the top. You know, if we don't have a change of administration, I don't think this is going to go down, or have the historical impact that it really should have.

It will be powerful, but it has to result in the changing of the administration. I am 100% for reforming the police department, but it doesn't stop there. That's just one or two steps higher in the building that we need to get. And the building, where we need to get is to the roof, and change the administration up top, so that something permanent can take place.

So the answer to your question, I think that this is a significant step. I think that it’s gonna change how people feel about luxury and things like that, but it's only going to be temporary, if we don't make a significant difference. 

Todd: [00:09:35] 100%, Dan. How does this affect your work and world that you work in? Like, how does that affect what luxury means or status looks like, all of this activism and reaction?

Dan: [00:09:47] It confuses everybody. You know, you have to look at your typical activists of today, as opposed to activism, in the sixties. Activism in the sixties, when you look at it, we had the SNCC,  Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, we had The Weathermen, we had the Panther Party. Now people might not agree with all these people, but they were well-versed in social issues. It wasn’t no spontaneous thing. These are the people who really studied, these were poli students, these were a lot of intellectual young people who took part in that. And I think there's a strong contrast to what's happening today, because then you have social media and anybody is an activist... and that's pretty dangerous, you know?

So to that I say, it's a good thing that happened, but it could be dangerous because that had a fairly profound effect on communities where people of color live in, and so, I don't even think people realize yet the backlash that this is going to take later on, and it complicates everything. And even with myself, the way it hits home... it has made people more militant about white and black issues.

It creates cancel culture, you know? So as soon as someone gets mad at any establishment, because of what they perceive is something that makes them look bad, then they go right into cancel culture mode, without looking at the historical aspects of, “What can we do about this in a positive way?” You know, the cancel culture caused a lot of problems.

Okay. Now, listen, in my situation, when the blackface took place, they automatically said Gucci is cancelled. Gucci is mainstream and has made the biggest inroads, that changes the way we have opportunities in fashion that's really incredible. But nobody took time out to really examine where we could’ve took this and where this can be taken. You hear what I’m saying? [Todd: Yeah, totally.] 

So with that happening, and people not having a historical perspective on how to deal with issues like that, it takes us back instead of taking us forward. So cancel culture is tied in to this revolutionary spirit that's taking place now, but we need people who understand historical aspects to be able to use these incidents that take place in a positive way. 

Todd: [00:12:21] I know that you were very moved by the speeches of Malcolm X and his work. 

Dan: [00:12:26] Very much. Yes. 

Todd: [00:12:28] How has that resonated in your life, and today, thinking about what's happening, as you recall, like ‘68 in Vietnam, how have the words of Malcolm X resonated in your life?

Dan: [00:12:40] The hardest thing to do is to speak truth to power, but the hardest part is speaking truth to power is speaking truth to those who share the same identity as yourself. 

If I ran down the street in Harlem, yelling things about--rightfully so--about what white people did, and I ran five blocks, in five blocks, I would have 500 people.

But if I ran down there and talked about what's wrong with the way we’re approaching it, I'm not going to have 500 people chasing me. So, I learned for myself, the hardest thing I have to do is speaking truth to the people, who, you inform them. You know? The screams and arrows of oppression came from what people? The people who look like me, because they don't understand what my plan is.

So, that's the hardest part of what I'm doing now. If I didn't come from the ghetto, if I didn’t have the validity of being really and truly from the ghetto, I would be having a serious problem right now, because they didn't want to hear it. I had to nail them into the head. I had to show the historical aspect. So the answer to your question, what did I take from Malcolm?

I took the steps to stand up to people who look like me and have a different opinion. It's a shame that Malcolm had to lose his life for it.

Susan: [00:13:56] Can you recall experiencing an uprising in similar circumstances? 

Dan: [00:14:01] The reason why people listen to me, cause I've been on both sides of the uprising. After I changed my life, I became positive by studying history and how things reflect, and where I think the movement should go, and people who are instrumental in changing the movement.

But before that, I was just a typical young wild buck in the streets, who might have been hanging more with the looters. You know? I went from being a looter to a rooter for what really needed to happen. So I understand both sides, and that's what I knew--I knew that there's a lot of anger in the streets. I was angry and I know how that anger looked, and I know that we need the right people, the right activists, who understand the nature of anger in the ghetto, from where I come from. I knew it was going to be a problem with what I saw on the news.

And I'm not going to say it was wrong because revolution takes on different forms. But I knew it was going to happen and I just didn't want it to have too much collateral damage, if you get my point.

Todd: [00:15:04] Dan, you transformed a lot of your life with fashion. You made changes in your life and, and you used the fashion system as a way to kind of reimagine yourself and empower yourself.

How did you make that transition from where you were to the person that you are today? 

Dan: [00:15:25] That had a lot to do with Malcolm as well. Malcolm said if you want to understand the flower, study the seed. So I needed to know what was the cause that was affecting my community and which tertially affected my life.

So I began to study why I was doing the things I was doing, because of Malcolm, and then I just took that, extrapolated it, to apply it to everything that happens to people of color in the world. So with that said, how can I change them? What changed me? What changed me was fashion, you know? So I said to myself, well, maybe I can use fashion as a medium of expression where I can build myself to a certain platform and get to share with people the more inner meanings of what I'm about. 

So on my intention never was to be a great fashion designer. My intention was not to fashion bodies, but to fashion young minds. So I went into it like that because that's what it did for me. First, I had to fashion the way I saw it--my intentions--and that changed everything else.

So, the same way I used fashion to make me feel complete and somebody, I can start there. And then people began to wonder about, like, what kind of guy is he? Who’s this guy? You know? And so from there I can deliver a deeper message. That's what motivates me the most about fashion. And I approach it from that perspective, I don't approach it, like I say, from just being me, me going out and saying to people--no, I inter-react. People wonder why--young guy asked me the other day, he said, “I see you on the bus and the train, man.” He said, “You’re Dapper Dan. Why are you on the train when you're always buying stuff.” I said, “the reason you see me on the bus and the train is because if I wasn't on the bus and the train, I wouldn't have saw you, I wouldn't have got a chance to talk to you.”

So that's what it's about. It's about people seeing me knowing what my change was and getting a chance to interact with me. And then that makes them want to know more about me. And the more they learn about me, the more we learn about a positive way to look at life. So that's been my perspective on fashion and where I want to go.

Todd: [00:17:31] Absolutely. Another thing about fashion that's interesting. I grew up like in the Midwest in kind of like a rural area. We were not wealthy. We were kind of poor. Everyone was farmers and coal miners, but there was always a sense of like, appearance, that was really important, even when you didn't have money.

So that whole appearance thing was definitely important in an upbringing there. Is there something that you can speak about in the way that people appear or what appearance meant for you growing up and what, what it means now? 

Dan: [00:18:07] Yeah, it's what I call “The Power of the Tie.” The Power of the Tie, you know? When you see people rebel, a lot, they don’t have the tie. They just get angry at the whole “tie world.”

You know, it's the Power of the Tie. And when I say the tie, I’m talking about the outfit. When you dress up, like we used to call it “Sunday, going to meet him clothes.” He used to dress up so well to go to church on Sunday, because it gave us a higher opinion of ourselves - we felt closer to the best things about ourselves and to the best thoughts that we could possibly be. And I wanted to transform that into the street clothes. You know what I mean? So when we dressed up, we felt more important. We felt like  somebody. And that's the deep transformative power of clothes, anyway, you know. To be, like, a part of the big world. Clothes is going to always have to make a statement, right? It's a good thing, and it's a bad thing.

You know, you see somebody coming with a hoodie, you know, it depends on the neighborhood, and a hoodie and dark skin, they get nervous because they saw something happened with a person with a hoodie and dark skin. That doesn't reflect on the person, but it reflects on the style itself. I mean, how many people of color did you see get killed that have on a suit and tie. What does that say? What does that say? You know?

A suit and tie means like, to them, you’re one of them. A hoodie means you’re one of the other people. Do you understand what I’m saying? That's not right, but that's what's happening. 

Susan: [00:19:30] Dap, you and I have talked about this and that’s sort of the power of the brand and you understood inherently what branding is long before there was a definition for brand, and that includes your Sunday Best. 

Can you talk a little bit about wanting to give those individuals, your clients, what they thought of as their Sunday Best and who they wanted to be and how the brands influenced that. 

Dan: [00:19:59] Yeah. Understanding that, I created a class within a class. You have this people in America who are considered “high class,” Right? And then in my particular world I didn't have this.

So I created the same kind of thing, the same thing luxury did for the big brands, I created a luxury for a different class of people that defined those who were the highest on that economical ladder. So, I recognized that. So that's why I started out with street culture. I mean, so I found out all those things that made us feel important, those garment factors like minks and furs, and everything that had that richness to it. 

And I used that and with that, I developed a brand. But even going into that, I looked at brands. I’d say, what is the brand? What does it represent? And I looked into symbols, and then I used the clothes to represent the symbol. And then once I took a look at these brands, I thought, the bottom line is the symbol.

So I took the symbols and created a brand, using my confines out of a brand. I took their brand and made it ours and then took it to another level. I knocked it up, like, I like to say. Do you get what I’m saying? [Susan: I do!] But I totally knew exactly what direction I needed to take, from studying what they did and how it was done and where it all came from.

So the bottom line is, even when I was studying religion, everything, even religion--, the cross, The Star of David I think, every brand, no matter what it is, has something that defines it and then there's this philosophy that goes with it. I can do this! I can create a culture within a culture. I can create a class within the class. And that's what I did. 

Susan: [00:21:54] And by doing so, what you did is you took what that brand symbolized and you knocked it down. You basically just debranded the original brand by turning it into your own brand. 

Dan: [00:22:09] Yeah. I told the brand, you're not as cute as you think you are. [Susan: That’s right! Laughter] I made the brand way cuter! They was so cute, they changed. The brand changed!

Susan: [00:22:25] The brand changed, that's right.

Dan: [00:22:26] I changed the brand!

Todd: [00:22:26] On that note, do you think that the language or the symbols that illustrate status have changed at all? You know, like you were talking about back when you started, it was like minks and diamonds and stuff. With different generations, has that changed? Is there a new look or a new way that status and luxury looks?

Susan: [00:22:45] A new brand?

Dan: [00:22:50] I’m gonna be honest with you. No, no. People right now, they are at the height of intoxication of status. We see all gold chains, [unintelligible] You know what I mean? When I started out there, they didn’t even have Mercedes Benz’ and Rolls Royces, now they have jets! 

Who could get to the highest, who can go there, who can be the most extravagant? So, has it changed? No. When you look at what people wear on stage, you know, and why they look that way, and how people respond. You know, my children, my grandchildren, they don't understand. They said, why do you read all the comments? I said, if I don't read the comments, when people see something, how am I gonna know how they’re thinking?

And when I look at how they’re thinking, when I put something on my Instagram account, it might be something philosophical, or something educational or something spiritual, I get a certain amount of likes. If I put an outfit on there, that’s fly, something I’d put on Beyonce, that tells you right there what that means, just look at where they’re going. That'll tell you everything you need to know. I mean, I directed the traffic, but I found out where they wanted to drive to, you know what I'm saying? 

Susan: [00:23:56] I do. So do you think then this pause is going to change what people are looking for? Is the brand changing now, are we changing now?

Dan: [00:24:07] Yes, we are changing a lot. There's a certain amount of gap too, resentment about people who can afford and people who can't afford. So they develop these camps. A lot of cancel culture might be grounded in the fact that these people can't afford that luxury brands anyway, but then they tell us how they feel. And some of them are legitimate. But we have to understand that a person is entitled to live according to how they want to live, as long as they're not hurting anybody else. 

So a lot of people who get caught up in how you’re supposed to look, that's something that is not liberating, but confining. So it’s the individual choice, but it's something that needs to be looked at. Aspiration is a big part of getting people to want to do better.

And I want a house. I want a car. I want to live right. So that does it for them. The other people, they might want to indulge in spiritual aspirations, but we can't define for someone else, because it's right for us. So I don't look at it like that.

Todd: [00:25:13] I'm curious about your experience in the American fashion system. What's your involvement or your intersection with Seventh Avenue and the CFDA, and that whole situation. Have you participated in that? Have they embraced you? Have they acknowledged you? What's your take on that? 

Dan: [00:25:34] You know what the most amazing part of all this, if you look back, it was like the elements of the industry that are more geared to the aesthetic value of what the industry is about gravitated towards me the most. [There are] Those who looked at me and say, “he's a bootleg,” and then you have those little, “wow, this is a great idea. This is different,” you know? They came looking, “wow, look, what are you doing?” It's always those two forces that interact: those who want to keep it the same and ignore the aesthetic value of what you're doing when you bring about change, and those who see it for its true worth and encourage it.

So, I've been fortunate enough, even though it took a long time to come in contact with people who understand the aesthetic value of what I was doing. But the other thought is always that it's all right if they take something and then nobody knows they took it, but with social media, that changed everything, so they had to give credit. 

And so that changed the structure of those who are bent on keeping certain elements of the culture down, and then you got those who are saying, “wow, this is exciting, let’s do this.” You know? Once again, I studied, like before I took this partnership with Gucci, I read up everything I could find about Marco Bizzarri and Alesandro Michele. And I said, these people are a part of what I'm talking about.

You know, and history will show that, there's always someone who comes along and says, you know, I'm going to open this door. I'm going to open this door cause it's right. And I'm opening this door also above that because it's powerful and it's time to change. And that's the gist of the whole thing. 

Todd: [00:27:16] That is the gist of the whole thing.

Susan: [00:27:20] I want to end this with sort of a twofold: One is, how has your book sort of influenced your career or has it, has it just opened you to a newer audience? And I know your paperback is coming out in the next couple of weeks, right? 

Dan: [00:27:35] Yeah. Yeah. And you know, how has it influenced my career? People don't realize that I'm different. I'm not your typical designer guy. 

Susan: [00:27:44] That's true. 

Dan: [00:27:45] So when they say, wait a minute, what is this guy about? And the bottom line, and I tried to tell us the young designers, it’s the essence of who you are. There's no such thing as ugly. People define ugly. And when you become excited, when you become interesting, then you become pretty. You become part of pretty, you know?

And so you shall define what beauty is. When you have a story that can connect from the rags to riches kind of story, you know, wow. That's like, he went from ugly to pretty, in terms of what his life was about. [laughter]

I was an ugly guy! ‘Cuz anger makes you ugly. I had to take out ugly. And then I said, hold up. There’s no ugly, they defined me as that! All I have to do is go into who I really am, and then the beauty comes out, there's beauty and the beast and everyone. You just gotta know how. Nobody defines it. In everyone!

Susan: [00:28:42] What's next for you. 

Dan: [00:28:45] You're next! Let me tell you why, man…I’ve been telling everyone around me… I'm feeling too confined right now. You coming into my life is very important because I have to incorporate all the aspects of the aesthetic...art, going all the way back. And I've been talking about that a lot. You know, Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo, going into what this all means. Going back two, three thousand years, it's all with me and why it's so important, how we can lift the culture up now because the culture is really stuck, you know, and I'd like to talk about that another time. The culture's really stuck now, you know, we need to raise this higher, the only way we can raise it higher is to bring the symbolism in. You know, more symbolism in, more meaning behind what fashion is. And you do that through art. You do that through all the vehicles of the aesthetic, you know, so art and I'm learning about opera and all these different elements that we can incorporate. Because we have to understand there’s greatness in people of all colors.

And I need to bring all the greatness out. And when you bring that all out, we appreciate each other more. It brings us together as a family. So I want to join up with you and just embark on this whole different level of the aesthetics of bringing more art into our lives. [Susan: I love it.] 

A lot of rappers are buying art, you know. That's good. So we need to spread it out. We need to show the richness of our culture. And we need someone who has the proper platform to make it happen, you know? Yeah. Okay. I want to close with this last thing. 

I went to a, a show and there were these young rappers there, and they were artists. And one of them was exhibiting his art and I asked him, I said, you know, like Lafayette, I say, what does that say?

I don't know. Let's say you don't know anything. When I paint, I don't, I don't, I don't know what I'm doing. I'll figure it out the next day. I say, why do you do that? They say, cause I get high off LSD. And so I went into this whole long dialogue on LSD, right, then I woke up the next morning and I said, did I just see what I did? I've defined how he should be creative. And I called him right up immediately and told him that, keep doing who you are. You understand what I’m saying?

Susan: [00:31:06] Yeah. 

Dan: [00:31:07] I don't want to get caught up into defining people, I'll let art take its own course. Edgar Allan Poe wrote the Raven when he was high as hell so I'm not gonna define it. [laughter] 

Susan: [00:31:10] To each his own.

Todd: [00:31:30] So good. This has really been an honor. I'm very happy to have spoken with you and feel deeply moved by your story. And for those of you that don't know, it's Dapper Dan Made in Harlem. It's a memoir, there's a book. You should get it. It's a really riveting story. Thanks so much. 

Susan: [00:31:50] Thank you so much.

Dan: [00:31:52] Thank you, guys. And Susan, I’m holding you to it. I’m coming out there.

Susan:  [00:32:01] I know you are. 

Dan: [00:31:52] You know, we're gonna do this. Okay?

Susan: [00:32:01] There's a place with your name on it out here. 

Dan:  [00:32:09] Thank you guys. I appreciate y'all so much.

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